transition guide available now

[See Newsletters Here]

Name: E-mail:

See Newsletters Here

[See OVA art for sale]

Sell Your Art on Amazon
See OVA art for sale

Mountaineer Posted by Curious Dreams

[Today]

• Mike Savad by Peter [Today at 09:57:06 AM]
• Evening City Captures by Sarah [February 07, 2010, 07:18:00 PM]
• Using Slideshare to marke... by Sarah [February 06, 2010, 12:13:39 PM]
• Out On The Streets by aknbean [February 06, 2010, 10:41:50 AM]
• Barney Davey on West Coas... by Sarah [February 03, 2010, 07:48:18 PM]
• It Was 18 Degrees Yesterd... by aknbean [February 01, 2010, 06:00:33 PM]
• New Work - Water Wiolrd by aknbean [February 01, 2010, 03:35:57 AM]

[Sarah]

For anyone interested, art.com has made their transistion guide pdf available on their site now.

[JohnRizzuto]

This is a posting I made on the art.com forum after reading the transition guide.  Thanks for letting us know about it Sarah as I had not been on art.com in a quite a while.

Ok, I read the PDF.  Read it kind of quickly but this is what I gathered and what I understand to be happening.

Obviously, there will be 3 sites.  Art.com, Artist Rising, and Sistino. 

1.  After June 20th our work will not be shown on art.com anymore.  Even though they mentioned something about we have another way to link to art.com after the 20th of June.  More news to come on this.  Whatever that means I have no idea.  But I take it as our work will not be show on art.com after June 20th.

2.  Artist Rising - they are basically giving us the tools and space to create our own web pages - like LiveBooks.  You can set up your gallery and organize collections (just like we do in the BETA now) and show all the info for you images.  If someone wants to buy an original they have to contact you directly like they do today.

3.  Sistino will be site where people buy the POD's.  (Right now people buy our PODs from Art.com not the OAP section)  The big difference and the killer is that there is a limit on the number of images you can put on Sistino (3,15,40) depending on your membership.  I have about 600 images up for POD right now on art.com.  After 6/20 I will only be able to put up 15 on Sistino. 

Art.com will be for the stock images/artwork they buy from other avenues - not from the OAP people (us).  They will probably have a link to Sistino (I am guessing).  From Sistino a person could link to your gallery on Artist Rising and buy a POD that is not shown on sistino from there. 

Here is the major problem.  Art.com is the attraction.  PODS today are on art.com.  For my example, I have 600 up there when people go to the main site (art.com).  Now they have to go to art.com, click to Sistino (if they will in fact link to Sistino) see only 15 of my PODs (maybe) and if they want more click to my gallery on Artist Rising.  So 3 levels of navigation as opposed to 1.  Sure, they can go to Sistino directly or your gallery directly, but why would they?  I am talking about a new buyer.  They are going to art.com (that is the brand that people know) and they will buy what they find on there.  Basically, we are getting hosed and art.com will be making money off of us by charging us for Artist Rising like a web hosting company.  (IMHO)

Here is a good example.  The monthly traffic reports for December.  I have a photo of Times Square.  The traffic for the month is 4 viewers.  I sold 21 POD's of that print for that month. The traffic reports only show who viewed it on the OAP not from art.com - what this tells me is that the buyers are going to art.com and not coming to the OAP section.  That?s why I could care less about the artist of the month (I was in that 8 out of 12 months last year)  The months I was not there I still received the same amount of sales.  In my mind, the only good thing was being on art.com site and now they will be taking that away.  Not good....in my view...

 

Bottom line on how I see this is, we are losing being associated with the brand name of art.com (the name that shoppers know)

 
1.      There used to be 2 sites ? one for the sales of PODs and one for the showcasing of individual new artist.  They linked back and forth nicely.

2.      From the main site, art.com, where the majority of the traffic is, we could place X-number of POD?s for sale.  The more views you had the more likely to make a sale.

3.      There will now be 3 sites, and our works will not be shown from the main (popular) site, art.com, where the majority of our sales are derived from today.

4.      The only way to be succesfull is for people to go directly to Sistino (see one of your ?popular? works) and then link back to your gallery on Artist Rising.  Why would someone do this consistently?  (My prediction is that sales of POD?s and number of people viewing our galleries will take a big hit)

 

I do not understand why our POD?s can not stay on art.com as they are today?  (I hope I read this wrong ? would love to know that I am wrong with this)

[Sarah]

I'm rereading the guide again, trying to understand the gaps among the cheerleading...

I have several concerns. One, as John mentioned, is not being found on the art.com site after June 30. But the art.com brand is what draws the traffic. The guide is very vague about what happens after that. 

"Phase 1
All images set up for Print-on-Demand by January 22will remain on Art.com through June 30.

Phase 2
A new way to list works on Art.com will be introduced. You?ll hear more about this later in the year.
Don?t worry! Through extensive Sistino marketing on-site ?which will start in Spring--artists will continue to reap the benefits of Art.com?s resources and ability to attract buyers."

What does this mean? When someone tells me to "don't worry". I start worrying. Don't pat me on the head - give me information instead!  (Hey, my first haiku.)

Another concern is, as mentioned, the three levels of navigation. That goes against website usability principles. Buyers who land on the art.com site are going to start immediately searching the images they see. Most of them are not going to keep clicking looking for somewhere else to find images - there's a bunch right there in front of them.

And say they do find their way to Artist Rising, then find something they like, they have to go to yet another site, Sistino, to buy it. This is crazy. Why not just let them buy it right there at Artist Rising?

As an open (free) member, I'm kind of boxed in. There's all this hype urging us to get our images all tuned and ready, but the 16 upload limit won't change until after January 22. It appears that the only way for me to effectively have more images is to upgrade my membership.

And I'll be damned if I'm going to upgrade until I see that things at least work. They haven't fixed all the bugs from the last launch. For example, I can't replace my existing images with different and better ones. I've deleted 2, but they don't go away. So I'm stuck. Of course I've emailed support, and mentioned it on the forum, but there's been no response to either. (Insert bad word here)

I understand that the possibility of being findable on allposters.com was talked about in the telephone conference. I don't see it in the guide. Does anyone else remember that?

In my opinion, it doesn't look to me like they're encouraging visitors to buy our art. They're making it easier for them to just buy art on art.com. And our work won't be there, apparently.

The part that puzzles me is why they're going through all these changes, because I don't think that art.com values the original artists much. Oh, wait! The membership fees aren't mentioned in the guide. Are they going up? 

As John said, too, if I've overlooked or gotten any of this incorrect, please, enlighten me. I'd love to be wrong here.

[JSlugman]

Wow, glad I'm not there.

Hoping you folks (or more precisely, THEY) get it sorted out soon.

[JohnRizzuto]

I think you hit it right on the head Sarah, they are pulling the "bait & switch" on us.  The switch being they want you to upgrade and pay and then oh by the way, you wont be on our main site, but on our sister site.  Don't worry, we will market it and internet users love to navigate to 3 different sites. 

[Sarah]

The fee question has been raised by another art.com on their forum. Which got me to wondering why the transition guide didn't even mention the fee structure?

So I posted a new thread over there asking art.com to explain what the fee structure will be.

I think it would be despicable for them to herd everyone into the new setup and then hit them with increased fees. I sure hope that's not the case.

But they need to be truthful and upfront with the members BEFORE they invest time and effort preparing for the changes. We deserve to know the complete picture.

[shortwork]

Hi

I have just up loaded a few images as a free member and am waiting for art.com to process them. I am now wondering what to do about art.com's evolution - many of you do not seam happy tho Erica/art.com do answer some difficult questions on the forums. Looks like a picked a bad time to join up...

The problem is that John R and Sarah are right about the main points; art.com's profile and reach made up for the tiny commission they offered but we now appear to be third rate citizens and all the "wait and see, it'll be fine" sales-speak from art.com is frustrating to say the least!

It appears that segmenting "us" away from art.com is the plan, and we're going to have to lump it. I don't understand how it can be in their interest to move the more successful artists, that's you JohnR, away from the art.com traffic. This will be interesting to watch...

Quite a few OAP artisits are seriously unhappy with these developments - as it stands it doesn't look good to me and I'll be looking more seriously at ImageKind and CafePress. What's the betting that when they get a significant number of artists they too will change the model to make more profit - from us.

Justin
www.shortwork.com

[Sarah]

Well, at least they addressed the fee question, so I feel a bit better about that part.

But there's still some mystery about our work remaining on art.com:

"in this period of transition, your PODs will remain for sale on Art.com." "We?re still developing the new solution/tools to enable you to show and sell your work through this channel."

I'd like to know what "through this channel" means, but I guess we'll have to wait and see, as Justin says. I got the impression that they're not going to say anything more on it.

[JohnRizzuto]

Hello Justin.  I would not consider myself a successfull (sp) artist just someone like all of us trying to find ways to sell our work and make some money off of this.  I do not make my living from selling photography.  Will be my retirement money and practice when that day comes (hopefully soon).

If it is true that we will not be shown on art.com then it hurts all of us.  To be honest though, with the current commission structure I could never see anyone making more than $1,000 a month art.com anyway.  And I would bet only a few artist make that much from POD work.  I am not talking about selling originals because a painting or other art forms can sell for that much or more for just an original.  I am starting to look into other sites as well.  I just joined Imagekind and I like it.  Need to see some traffice but the tools seem very artist friendly.

Now here is my plan with Imagekind.  I am not going to count on them to drive traffic.  I have my own web site and other web traffic that I get.  I am going to set up a select few prints on Imagekind and then link to them from my main site.  I have a email and blog of list of around 3,000 people so I would put the word out to them and see how they feel about buying the framed work from Imagekind.  Well, thats my plan in the near future anyway. 

Also, I checked out your website.  Great work.  I really like it.  One thing...time to change your copyright it's 2007.  :-)

[Sarah]

Tension is building over at art.com over the issue of whether original artists' work will still be on art.com after June. Check out the forum. The transition guide is vague about it, so more artists are asking for the exact truth. As John pointed out, it will make a large difference to many.

I hope they clarify soon - there are several artists who said they are holding off making business decisions, based on this.

There's just one thing that puzzles me. Why would they remove our work from art.com? What would they gain? 

[Ron_Scott]

I'm just playing devil's advocate here..   but, I bet that they don't do a lot to promote the unknown artists in the past.  Combine that with fewer sales from the unknown artists as compared to the people that are searching for an "Ansel Adams" and it's too crowded if the unknowns aren't selling all that much.

To look at it another way..  Let's say that there is a brick and mortar business that sells Craftsman tools and that is a name that customers know they can trust.  And they know that they will always have a steady stream of income on Craftwman tools.  But the problem is, is that they had the idea that maybe not everyone would want a Craftsman tool so they let every tool manufacturer in the world have shelf space.  So now, the customers are coming in the store, but all they want is a Craftsman tool.  They see all of the other ones but it's harder for them to find the Craftsman tools because there are just too many other tool choices.  So their overall income goes down as a result of having too many other tools in the store to choose from.  But, they really like it that the other manufactures are renting shelf space from them so they don't want to tell them to take a hike and lose that income.

So what do they do? The only logical choice..  they give all the other manufactures a new pitch that they're going to give them a brand new showroom in the back of the building and they'll still be required to pay rent to be in it.

The store knows that the customers are going to come in through the front door, and 99 out of 100 of them will buy Craftsman tools, and occasionally someone will see one of the small signs and go to the back of the store to browse those tools and might even buy one once in a  while.

The end result?  The store increases sales of Craftsman tools since it's easier for their customers to buy them.  PLUS, they keep the revenue from all of the other tool manufacturers that are paying rent.

Ron

[Sarah]

Hmmm, let me ponder...

Okay, for a brick and mortar store I could see it because there's limited space.

But to borrow your analogy, it's like they've just bought the parking lot out back and they're building a separate store for the non-Craftsman tools. Paying the additional costs for another building; rent, heat, electricity, when they could have just maybe added on to the existing store and had a larger, more impressive one with more variety of tools, for way less expense.

The customers are probably more likely to buy a variety from within the same building, because they might not keep going out the back door to the next building. So there'd still be more income from keeping the tools all in one building.

Plus, selling the original art gives them a certain degree of authenticity, that they might not have if all they sell is high volume posters and standard art prints.

Nope, still not making sense to me... although a lot of their other decisions have not made business sense, in my opinion, either. 

[Ron_Scott]

It comes down to where their most dollars come in from and they can capitilize on that.

We are being put out to pasture.  There has to be a reason.

Ron

[JohnRizzuto]

I tend to agree with Ron....  the "space" is the space that our artwork takes up on the servers and if we crowd the site with "unknown" work that could frustrate the users when they are looking for a Ansel Adams.  They dont want to have to scroll through hundreds of John Rizzuto's to get to an Ansel Adams. 

Thats my take.  That is why I think they are trying to make there money by charging use fees, not by selling our work.  My opinion is that the OAP artists do not sell that much.  you read to many posts about people saying how happy there are with the sales do you? 

Just a thought

[Ron_Scott]

Eventually, the OAP members stop paying their fees to have prints for sale on art.com, but there are always a new crowd going in to replace the old so they still have that constant stream of revenue.

John was so right when he talked about exhibiting your work in real places to maximize your profits for online sales.  Since he posted that I have been working to get a press kit done (will post about what I did when it is complete). 

I tell you a GREAT place to start.  Many towns/cities have a consortium of colleges headquarters. It's a corporate place that directs buying power for all of the schools (members).  You get a press kit together and hit up the Director of Public Relations with it and tell her/him that you're interested in exhibiting in local college libraries or art museums.  BAM.. with one press kit you have instant access to thousands of potential buyers.  The kids buy all kinds of art for their dorm rooms.

Unless you have a ton of money to dump into fiddling around with google adwords (or yahoo, or both) you can probably expect a modest income from POD sales.  Modest meaning, it might cover the cost of you paying for POD accounts, and it might pay for some lighting equipment or something.. paying for your hobby.  And maybe, that's all you want.

If you want more, you've got to get out and exhibit or have real life store distribution.  Within a couple of months I will have hit up most of the major art/print store chains in the U.S.  I've heard "no" more than once in my life and it won't hurt my feelings to hear it a few more times.  It would only take one major "yes" to create a hell of a revenue stream.

Ron

[Sarah]

Well, you guys may be right. Certainly there is a reason why they're moving us.

But then why do they say they plan to spend all those bucks to create and market Artist Rising and Sistino, if we don't provide very much income?

Ron, great idea about the colleges!

[JohnRizzuto]

So true Ron.  I wish had more time to do it.  I am too chicken to give up my day job.  I do submit my work at local colleges and you have to be accepted to show your work.  Don't underestimate the power of colleges if they are prestiges ones.  What I have learned, (since I never took an art class or photography class in my life) is that some of the art professors at major colleges are well respected in the art community. 

A few years ago I this art show at a local college that happened to be an ivy leave school.  I had no idea what to expect but like Ron said, they did this whole press kit about me and during the reception they had print and television (which happened to be NBC in NYC) at the event and I did a few interviews.  I thought that I was just going to put up some work and maybe some college kids would buy it.  I didn't even want to go to the reception until I heard it was free booze.   Well, after being interviewed and they kept asking me how I felt about being one of three selected to show my photos (chosen from a few hundred applicants they said) and, how I felt that so so and so selected me.  I had no idea who so so and was and they said she was head of the art department and well respected in the art field with lots of contacts.  Besides, feeling like an ass, I was like wow this is pretty good.  And in the long run it was.  The free booze didnt hurt either  :-)

Good luck with it Ron!

[JSlugman]

Ron's so right, never put all your eggs in one basket.

Think of your art as part of your financial portfolio. You would never put all your "savings" in one type of savings vehicle and with some hard work (and diversification) on our part our art will fund us well into the future!

[shortwork]

Personally I agree with Ron about approaching bricks and mortar companies/shops to buy prints for their offices, sell them in cafes/restaurants, library shows whatever - cost of framing can be an issue, especially if you don't sell many...

I mentioned on another thread that the Peter Gabriel music festival, WOMAD, may be using one of my shots for their identity image, tickets, website, programme etc and they've just comfirmed. ?500 for the main image and ?10 per shot used for any future promo stuff(not merchandising).

Any idea if this is fair? I want to work with these guys in the future so money isn't everything but I thought such a key image would be worth more... Anyway, my point was that I just approached them with an idea and they've gone for it - a "NO" is not so bad and a little constructive criticism can be very insightful - a yes is better!

[Ron_Scott]

It depends on how good you are at the art of negotiating.  You might say, "I was thinking more along the lines of $1500 for the main image and $25 for the additional ones" and they would probably come back and offer $700.

The worse thing they can say is "no."

[shortwork]

sneaky advertising salesman for 20 years, I can do it! still want to be fair tho...

[Sarah]

This is for those who are not art.com members, but might be interested in seeing the transition guide anyway.

The attached file is a text version of the pdf available on art.com. The text version is not pretty, but it is readable.

[bragova]

Art.com is investing many millions of dollars in two brand-new sites exclusively for living artists because market analysts tell them that's where the biggest growth is going to be.  It's risky, but the way businesses get big and stay big is by predicting the future and gambling on being right.

[Ron_Scott]

So tell me how "many" millions? 2 or 20? or somewhere in between?

And how are they going to spend this money?  And how will I benefit directly (other than just increased traffic to the site)?

Are they going to take one of those many millions and fix the damn search feature so that the tag words work?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Ron_Scott]

And who are these "market analysts" and what criteria are they basing their facts on?  Where are the reports that I can personally read that gave them this data?

[Tags:]

Jump to: Please select a destination: ----------------------------- Official Forum Business - Read Only ----------------------------- => Forum Policies - Please Read Before Posting => OVA Terms of Service => OVA PRO membership => Forum Announcements => Board Modifications ----------------------------- OVA Art Competitions ----------------------------- => Previous Competition Topics ===> "Water" Competition - May 2008 ===> "FACES" June 08 competition ===> "MACRO" Competition ===> ABSTRACT ===> BLACK & WHITE ART ===> HOLIDAY MACRO ===> MUSIC ===> MATERIALS ===> EMOTIONS ===> MOVEMENT & TRANSPORTATION ===> COMPLEMENTARY COLORS ===> WILDLIFE => Competition Rules - Please READ before entering images => General Competition Topics => HOLIDAY COLOR ----------------------------- General Category ----------------------------- => Welcome New Members! => Calendar Events ----------------------------- Online Art Selling Sites ----------------------------- ===> artbyus.com ===> Art.com ===> artwanted.com ===> Boundlessgallery.com ===> cafepress.com ===> Deviantart.com ===> ebay.com ===> EBSQart.com ===> etsy.com ===> Imagekind.com ===> Lulu.com ===> RedBubble.com ===> UK and European Sites ===> yessy.com ===> zazzle.com ----------------------------- Critiques, Feedback or just Display ----------------------------- => Great Artists Discovered by Us => Show your stuff! Critiques are fine! ----------------------------- Marketing ----------------------------- ===> Art Blogs ===> Search Engine Optimization ----------------------------- Great Links & Learning ----------------------------- => Painting Resources => Photography Resources => Master Classes => Location, location, location  

Advanced search

Freedom Posted by durella in BRIGHT & SHINY - Ooh, it's shiny!

[Your Best 2009 Work]

Competition Rules
Competition Topics Current Competitions
Your Best 2009 Work
Gallery
Voting Now!

Bright & Shiny
Gallery
Discussion

Upcoming Competitions
Overdone/Cliche
Food
Birds of a Feather: birds and things related to them
Sounds (visual representations of)
Scanner art

[OVA Official]

•    OVA Official
•    Policies & Stuff
•    PRO & Amazon
•    Sell on Amazon
•    PRO membership
•    OVA on Amazon
•    Submit Art
•    Competitions
•    Calls for Art
•    Show your work
•    Discovered Artists
•    General
•    General
•    Welcome New Members
•    Art-Selling Sites
•    Art Sites & PODs
•    Marketing Your Art
•    Marketing
•    Selling & Publishing
•    Resources
•    ARTIST RESOURCES
•    Outstanding Links
•    Image Editing
•    OVA Galleries
•    Winners
•    Members 2009
•    Members 2008
•    All Galleries